Should Flamers be allowed by Heavy Gunner?

[Grendel the Ogre]

Me and My team have talked about it and we have came to the belief that the Heavy Gunner should be allowed. (super soaker with paint) We also feel that any hits to the gun or tank reservoir would count as a kill that requires re-insertion; the gunner being burned to death and all. This weapon can count for taking out vehicles or tanks when they hit in openings burning the people.

By the way, team Original Sins, have ours already. So of course we feel they should be allowed. NOTE: the Heavy Gunner and only the Heavy Gunner should be carrying this unless a new special position exists for a Flamer unit. I leave the exact rules to HitMan after he and the powers that be make a ruling on this.

Now many People would say how they would consider hits that deflect off a tree or wall. Keep in mind that a real flame thrower tosses a fuel like kerosene and splashes will still burn a person. The whole half-dollar size paint mark on body or vest is a burn. On the head you’re DEAD. Being cover by paint on the entire arm, chest, etc. would be a re-insertion of that person.

[Sparrow 69]

I agree, as I had this debate in another thread.  as a matte rof fact, I almost started this poll, but it looks like you beat me to it.  In my opinion, I think its a good idea however i don't think it should be that simple.  I agree that only heavy gunners should be allowed to roll with a flamer, or maybe even the demolitions guy.  Also I agree that a a hit to the tannk or gun should de so devastating as to be considered a headshot. 
Although I agee, I don't think it should be as just a super soaker.  It should have to have a backpack unit (IE Fuel tank) and a hose system.  It should be this way as to pose a significant threat to the carrier.  Also I think that the flamethrower should only be able to weild the flamer, no sidearm.  That way when hes out of fuel, hes out of commisssion.  That way it keeps down on spray happy painters who think their toting power wagners and painting their house.
I'd have to say it would be an interesting item to weild in adefensive capasity, or to eliminate the tank everyone is talking about being used.

[LT.RAZAK]

I think they should be used.  I mean what if you're doing a WWII game, they did use Flamers.  But they should only be used in time period game such as WWII games where the wepon was used.

[HitMan.]

I think they should be used.  I mean what if you're doing a WWII game, they did use Flamers.  But they should only be used in time period game such as WWII games where the wepon was used.

We are giving a lot of thought into this. Its looking good. We only want to control the amount of paint a user can use or bring onto the field. We don't want him/her going and walking around shooting the flamer and wiping all players away. So we will work this into the game style. If you have them bring them to the trial games in April. Thats what they are for so we can work out all the loose ends before NOVEMBER. Whos Coming? Please post in the section about whos coming. Thanks

[snake doc]

(I promise I don't boo everything suggested)

Saw a video once of a flamer....if I got THAT much paint on my marker and had to clean it...I would be mad, not to mention my tactical vest, boots, etc.

It isn't a war game, it is a tactical game. Strategy should be the biggest impact NOT the number of toys.

Bad idea...this league doesn't need it and I'm having visions of the games featured in APG with players dressed up in Darth Vader Masks and carrying lightsabers.

[Sparrow 69]

thats why theres a poll, so people can vote and voice their opinions.  The poll about Jerseys was a surprising one, everyone kept saying let them play with them but then 88% voted fot BDU's.... The compromise, Camoflage jerseys are allowed...
Maybe with this it'll be stream spray only no fan, that way people dont get completely drenched.  I mean its already a hazard.  Your complaining about getting paint all over your marker, and thats understandable, not saying you shouldn't voice those opinions, but did you ever consider tripmines, grenades, spraytraps, and landmines?  All of them have the potential to cover your gear.  I personally have taken a direct hit in the fasemask/ neck region and been drenched by an atomic Fatboy grenade.  Same thing here.  paint is temporary and nessasary.

[snake doc]

Sparrow, I sent in our ongoing disagreements to APG magazine to see if they will give us a column.


The difference between the Jersey/BDU debate is participation numbers and marketing. I haven't read a post yet where a team has said I won't play without using my flamer. The Camo jersey wasn't a compromise, it was a clarification of an earlier statement. It is allowing the maximum number of participants to grow the league. The poll is a nice tool, but all answers can't be determined by a voting mechanism that guages responses without making sure you have an accurate representative sample of the ENTIRE population. (see college stats came in handy)

The flamer is a scenario weapon (when it is allowed) and it isn't even something that a company makes...you have to build it in your basement. As I stated earlier...it is pirate paintball not organized tactical.

Tripmines, gernades, etc are all designed as squad buster weapons and a big  boy doesn't have as much paint in a burst as a supersoaker filled up. I admire the people that design this stuff, but is it necessary JUST because someone built it? Can I design a big napalm bomb of paint to call in an air strike if I can do it safely?  How about a punji pit trap filled safely with a layer of paint and cushioned so no one can get hurt? Cool? Yes! Necessary? No.

[Sparrow 69]

LOL, I hope they do give us a column! We could be the Siskel and Ebert of Paintball!  Remember, I'm not arguing with you, merely pointing out the other side of the same coin. Someone out there needs to be an advocat ad litum (See I went to college too)

Bact to the thought at hand, If you will notice in the original postings about flamers, it was an Idea derived for squads to deal with Tanks.  It was part of the Tanks thread and called into play when people asked what they could use to remove a tank.  Bear in mind that there will be tanks as third party, that means they will be shooting at both squads equally.... How do you plan to deal with them?  Personally, I plan on useing my flamer to deal with tanks, but i'll only have the heavy gunner lug it on the field if a tank is in play.  So back to the root of things, Thats why Hitmann has stated they will limit the amount of paint a flamer can use, and we will be experimenting with it at the april games... thats what the april games are for.

[snake doc]

Here is a better idea...host a big game and allow tanks, flamers, and two-seater helicopters to fly overhead....oh, wait...they do that already...it is called D-Day!!!

C'mon gang, this is a tactical league. mano y mano...urban combat....closed quarters tactics. This stuff is all just big gimmicks and doesn't add to the realism. How many points do you give for a tank kill? 25 for using a flamer and only 15 for a nerf rocket for level of difficulty? What happened to skill and limited hoppers for "realism" now we have to compensate for having to actually think and ration by adding this kind of stuff? Just plain silly.

ESPN COMMENTATOR 1: Looks like the Bravo team is inching toward the 2 level building....uh, oh looks like the Hitsquad has called in the back up artillery and has called in the flamer to take out some of Bravo

ESPN COMMENTATOR 2: Yes, Bravo is going to have to make a major point play to even up the score with only 15 minutes on the clock remaining

ESPN COMMENTATOR 1: Wait a minute Stan, Bravo has brought out their shields to deflect the flamer AND is signalling to the ref that they are using the cloaking technology that the pentagon is working on to replicate what was seen in the movie "Predator" Unbelieveable!

ESPN COMMENTATOR 2: Yes, under TTPL rules Bravo is now in stealth mode and cannot be "seen" for 30 seconds. This could just turn the whole game around.

THAT is going to make great television! 

[Sparrow 69]

LOL.... i can just see the clay figures from celebrity death match saying something like that.

You've completely missed my point snake.  Flamers are for Tanks which both teams will have to face at the same time. its a third party, not mono ey mono, but possibly mono ey tank ey mono.  Bear in mind only this field is urban, subsequet fields will take on a SARS feel, and a SEALS encounter.  Think of the movie Tears of the sun.... now imagine a joungle field with a small clearing in the center with quansit huts set up.  Thats not very urban now is it?  and like I said, the first game is to eliminate all the nonsence things people may show up with, so if you don't bring them, how can they be ruled on?  Bring the tanks, bring the flamers, just bring them to Aprils TRIALS, not Novemberes LEAGUE GAME, that way ground rules can be set if the items will be allowed.

[Grendel the Ogre]

Okay then all RPGs, Bazookas, LAWs, SRM, LRM, and cannons should be disallowed then too. These could not be used to hit people but they are allowed to target the bunker, building, etc thus killing all persons within X feet of the impact. AND because this is a skill of the people then such weapons should not be allowed. . . .  I don't see this happening.

Again that is why there is a poll, why I allowed only one vote per person, and that requires you to have a login for this forum to even cast a vote. Thus giving a representative vote to the people posting on the board.

Hay You don't want it convince your friends or just ask them to cast a vote to this post to help the ttpl know what people want.

Yes a limit to the amount of paint in the "Flame Thrower" I would agree with and highly suggest. Note my comment on what happens to the holder of this device. NOTE: SEE THE FIRST POST

My intent was to represent the use mostly for taking out tanks, mission objective points, etc. However, the use of hitting people could be used. Yes It could be a pain to clean oneself off.

By the way did the solders of WW2 not use tactics? I say yes. They were different for the time. Hell even the Spartans Used tactics. I bet if you look at what they did in 2000 BC the tactics were similar to that of 200AD, 1100AD, 1500AD and today. Some tactics have been abandoned of course yet there were tactics.

[snake doc]

You get one chance to make a first impression...April is your ONE commercial...doesn't matter how much you push that November will be the "REAL" deal....there is no taking it back. Even if it is just a scrimmage it is a preview of the REAL action for the public.

If this was the pro bowl and I wanted Rex Grossman to be my starter THEN I would start campaigning, but this isn't a glorified tournament it is a chance to do ground breaking stuff and 80% of the people who vote "YES, we want a flamer" are NOT representative of everyone that will play or has a concern.

HISTORY LESSON: A Poll is a representative sample that can accurately forecast what is favored by the whole group.....you don't have that on this poll and even if I could contact everyone I ever played with, you still wouldn't have it.

You both are missing the point...cool yes, exciting yes, cheapening what you are creating...DEFINITELY.

Let me check...have to wear BDU's.......realistic markers only.......BUT supersoakers painted black are ok?? LOTS of realism there.

[Sparrow 69]

You get one chance to make a first impression...April is your ONE commercial...doesn't matter how much you push that November will be the "REAL" deal....there is no taking it back. Even if it is just a scrimmage it is a preview of the REAL action for the public.

April isn't even a regisated game!  Its a trial to make sure the fild works.  There is only one game this year, its in november.  Thats when the TV cres and the launch party is.  April is move of a practice and an all call to go over rules and test fire rules to see if they work or not.  I wouldn't even catagorize it as a scrimmage, because its not, its a practice, and its close except to those who have signed up and paid their entry fee for November.

If this was the pro bowl and I wanted Rex Grossman to be my starter THEN I would start campaigning, but this isn't a glorified tournament it is a chance to do ground breaking stuff and 80% of the people who vote "YES, we want a flamer" are NOT representative of everyone that will play or has a concern.

then those people need to vote, register and show up to see what the official ruling is.  as of right now, its a yes, but since this poll will only reveal its results after march 15th, if you want to campaign do so, just quit complaining about it.

HISTORY LESSON: A Poll is a representative sample that can accurately forecast what is favored by the whole group.....you don't have that on this poll and even if I could contact everyone I ever played with, you still wouldn't have it.

the poll only has to reach those who show an intest in the subject, and in this case its everyone on this board who has shown an intrest in TTPL.  They can all vote, and it will be accurate.  If they choose not to, then thats on them.
why would I poll people who have no clue what it is that we're talking about?  That would be rediculous.

You both are missing the point...cool yes, exciting yes, cheapening what you are creating...DEFINITELY.

Let me check...have to wear BDU's.......realistic markers only.......BUT supersoakers painted black are ok?? LOTS of realism there.

whoa whoa whoa, who said anything about super soakers painted black? do you know what goes into making a paintball flamer?  First you need a larger then normal air tank, scuba tanks are good if you change the regulator to push out 600-800 psi.  Then you need a liquid chamber separated by a pressure regulator to keep the pressure at a constant.  Next you need a mix chamber that is agitated to keepp the paint mix from clotting.  all of this must be pressurized and vaccum lined to a sprayer nozzle, with a 10 guage tip. Ususally they use the spray nozzle off a pressue washer, with a short 10g body, slipped inside a shroud and painted to look like a flamer.  most weigh about 40 lbs, and are contained in a backpack unit.  Supersoakers.. yeah, thats kind of cheesy, and that i would definately say is out.... but something that is complesx and costs more then your tippman to build, and poses more of a threat then anything else, I say bring it, and it won't deminish the quality of the game.  All in all, lets see what April brings. Hope you're there to voice your opinion! Can't wait to meet you!

[snake doc]

(SIGH) basic stats lesson #1...polling numbers are accurate if they are garnered from a R-E-P-R-E-S-E-N-T-A-T-I-V-E sample...so the people here are the only ones that will play and be affected? That is like me getting 300 people to register and vote my way and declaring a victory. BIG reason why Hall of Fame voting is up to the sportswriters and the Pro Bowl voters that are fans get a marginal percentage accounted for.

Yeah, I've seen the flamers that look like scuba gear...does that mean I can build an ground to air missle that cost more than anyones gear to launch at tanks now? Who cares how much it cost or how cool it looks...it is a big waste and a big mistake.

The tactical event is developing into the most organized scenario game in NJ.

[Sparrow 69]

well, it is put together by thoe same group that do NJ Nam, the largest event on the east coast!

I was merely pointing out it wasn't a supersoaker painted black, its a little more involved.  a surface to air missle for a single event would just be retarded.
Look, I'll square away with ya.  I only initially brought up the thought of flamers, so that hitman could be prepared with a little forethought when people showed up at the game with them. would you rather he be unprepared?  if thats what you would like, i'll hop in my time machine, go back and stop the post from ever happening.
i think the problem here is your view.  Bare in mind, no matter what you call it, this is a scenario game.  There are objectives and points, and taskes that need to be done to score points to win.  two 45 minute halves with one team on defence and one on offence, then a 15 minute halftime and then a switch. from off to def and def to off.
it may not be as large scale as 1000 on 1000, but it is still a scenario compitition.  Theres even bonus points for each special position.  THERE'S A MEDIC!  stop looking at it as another ordinary paintball/ speedball compitition and everything will fall into place for you.