Equal Ground

[sharpshooter1]

I agree with Snake Eyes. Not all teams will have night vision, however the team that does not have NV must pick up their game, and be a little stealthier, play a little smarter.

[TheJoker]

Yes, but no one should be forced into such a position.  They should be given that much to choose.  That way they can't blame losing to NVGs.  Like I already stated, I think the best way is to have both teams meet before hand and discuss what level their NVGs are and how many this wish to use.  Then they agree on how many to use and then game on.  This way, the team without NVGs couldn't say they lost because they didn't have NVGs because they allowed to the other team to have X amount of NVGs with Y level.

The Joker

[Ddraiglais]

Then I don't want anyone with a marker more expensive than an A-5. Everyone needs to use a stock barrel. Nobody can have digital camo (gotta use the old style woodland). Everyone has to use CO2. No regs or stabs should be allowed. Nobody is allowed to have prior military experience. Nobody can be too athletic. Did I miss anything? We wouldn't want anybody to have any perceived advantage over anybody else.

(please note sarcasm here)

Seriously though, where do you stop? If you ban one thing because it's an advantage, what would stop people from complaining about other "advantages"? I say let people have NVGs if they want them.

[TheJoker]

Please note (Ddraiglais if your comment was towards my last one) I was not saying that NVGs should be banned.  I suggest that the use of NVGs be decided by both teams before hand.  That's not a ban.

The Joker

[Ddraiglais]

I can see what you're saying, but then do the captains have to agree to allow e-grips, magnetic triggers, response triggers, grenades, grenade launchers, etc? In a real tactical situation you have no control over what your enemy will have. I think that anything that would normally be used in a tactical situation (within reason) should be allowed. If someone had a marker that shot fifty or sixty rounds a second, then so be it. There are machineguns out there. Same thing for grenades, mines, or whatever.

On the flip side, I'm a little bit against having tanks. You don't encounter tanks as much in small unit tactics. My fear would be that if they allowed tanks, then every team would eventually have a tank, and I don't think that's in the spirit of what this league is about. Now having a tank as an objective or something in an odd game is something entirely different.

[TheJoker]

No, the captains wouldn't have to meet to talk about that stuff.  Those things are much more available and cheaper and have more uses for the players outside of this league.  Having an E-grip, or a grenade doesn't give you that much of an advantage.  Having NVGs does.  And since the majority of people out there don't have them, they should be controlled.

Tanks, I don't know.  I'm gonna stay out of it.  No tanks, that's fine by me.  Have tanks, I'll blow them up.  I don't care really one way or the other.

The Joker

[mok]

i am going to have to agree with Ddraiglais on this one ( and everyone else that also stated similiarly )....

if they got it, let them use it....i don't have NVG, but i have gone against some who do, and a q-beam fixes the problem just fine....

of course there is an advantage, and i understand all the points against them....and if i had the money i would buy some too....but i don't, so i can't....but i am not going to complain if someone else has them....it just makes it harder....and night vision isn't that expensive anyways, i see them in shotgun news relatively cheap, you don't have to have the top of the line military issue ones that cost one arm, one leg, and your first born....

i believe limiting any tactical equipment solely on the basis that you can't afford it, is a bit childish. i thought this was about tactics, team work, and specialist....

" ah, crap...we spent all our money on cool guns we forgot to get a law....ref..they should not be allowed to use that law, because we can't afford one!" <---seems silly to me....

the same goes for tanks....but i am against the "walking tank", i think it should be a motorized vehicle, no gun ports, mounted MG....let's not say tank, lets say APC....see http://tacticalpaintball.com/forum/showthread.php?t=906&highlight=tank

and again if they got it let them have it...for every advantage there is a way round it, to counter it....



just my opinion....

[quickkill]

If this was a scenario, then any legal advantage a team can whip up is fine. But, this is a competition. Logic would dictate that a competition is set up to test skill on a platform of equal ground. People don't seem to realize this. As far as people dismissing the huge advantages that things like tanks and night vision bring to a team, of course there are are counter measures, but there is a clear advantage. I just don't see it belonging in a competition. It's like saying that while one team is limited to 50-round hoppers, the other team is allowed to use HALO's and it's no big deal. In my opinion, it's best to keep things simple. People will have just as much fun and it'll be a real test of skill, not gear.

[mok]

right, i see your point....i was only think of it as the idea that in a real life situtation, that you would come across a foe that you would either have the advantage over or vice versa....but i do see your point, and i agree with it, this is not a simulation of combat, but a competition of tactical units.....well said....i see now.

[ghostman]

Mok made a good point, then Quickkill makes a good point.  Hmmm, I want to be able to have anything and everything available, but I do agree with Quickkills point.  What if the tournament had two levels of competition...one tournament with no NVE and tanks, and one free-for-all tournament, where you bring whatever you got.  This last tournament could possibly start up next year.

[HitMan.]

Mok made a good point, then Quickkill makes a good point.  Hmmm, I want to be able to have anything and everything available, but I do agree with Quickkills point.  What if the tournament had two levels of competition...one tournament with no NVE and tanks, and one free-for-all tournament, where you bring whatever you got.  This last tournament could possibly start up next year.

Now theres another great idea...

[Doony]

i think snake eyes has a very valid point and i was thinking the same. I dont see the purpose of tanks but if they want to let them in cool. Now night vision is apart of all swat and military and if your team doesnt have them then that sucks for you. Its your fault for not buying them. And yes i know they are expensive and my team wouldnt be able to buy them but we would deal with it and play anyway because its the fun of the game. Overcome the challange of being out equipted. Just because someone hase a little more gear doesnt mean you will lose you can still beat them. Its all about your will to win, gear plays a role but its not everything.

[Sparrow 69]

ok, so i need to put my 2 cents in on this whole NVG issue.  My team is very creative when it comes to budgeting, and as of this far, only one member currently has night vision.  He purchased a Gen 1 monocile, and is all excited about it, however I don't use one, never have, and will probably hever use one for the game of paintball.  Some of you bicker and complain that it gives others with money an unfair advantage, but have any of you wagered in the risk they are taking? I think not.  a Gen 3 unit costing almost 1k costs so much because of the delicate precision of the instrament.  Ever see what a paintball at 30ft will do to that same set of goggles? or how about at 50' or even 75'?  One hit, one headshot, and blamo, they are out 1k.  even if it warientied, the warrenties dont cover paintballs.  I say if a group wants to use them, and are willing to pay for the risk of it getting broken, go right ahead.  i love head shots anyways... I take them every chance i get and in order to see through a NVG unit, you gotta stick your head up and look, thats how it works.
with that being said, let me point out another factor.  Laser pointers will flasover the lens of any gen1 gen 2 or gen 3 NVG and completely iradicate any natural night vison you have in that eye for 45 minutes, incidentally the length of one half of this game.  Ever look threw a set of NVG's into a spotlight? expecially a strobing 100k candlewatt zenon stobe?  they cost about 10 bucks, and will completly eliminate the funcionality of any nightvision within 75 ft... nighttime skydivers use them all the time.  look into some, if your opponet is using NVG's, turn them on at the start of the game, and i guarantee they stop using them because they do more harm then good.
If anyone else has anything to say on the subject then I just feel plain sorry that your lack of creativity wont allow you to get around the need for NVG's.

Hitman, my vote is the same as snakeyes, if you got them, use them, by all means.... but I won't. 

[Grendel the Ogre]

The problem with allowing NVGs is that many people cannot afford them. For the price of one Gen-3 system, you can buy every piece of gear I have almost 4 times. With the allowance of such an expensive product, it gives aid to the people who have more money, taking away some of the stress on skill. I know you are trying to go for SWAT / SF style of combat but when a significant advantage relies on who makes the most money, it takes away from the skill you are trying to stress as part of a game.

I got a $150 Gen 1 Night vision. I got this to test out with some people who play night play near me. I think it has great resolution and vision. If you want a Gen 3 for paintball I think your crazy, but go ahead if you want too. I got a Yukkon Spirit, cheap and cost less then my marker or air tank. Granted it is the 3rd most expensive single item I bought for paintball. Considering some people spend more than $150 on their gear I say stop being a baby.

I don't see this being a piece I carry on one eye waiting to shoot someone. However, it will enhance my game come some two day event like EMR or Skirmish. Just like a good mask is not needed in paintball; however, many people will spend 50 to 80 bucks to keep their lens clear. Some people will spend 120 on a flatline for the hopes of shooting about 20 feet further than the average other paintballer.

My team mate Sparrow 69 did make a valid point about flashing a flashlight or extra IR emitters can over expose the NVG making them useless. That is why I intend to use the NVG sparingly. Plus the 150 I spent on it is a small cost to add to the play not make the play. Hell I could end up playing a 1/2 dozen games and find it useless and not waste my time with it. Who knows?

[Drizit]

I'm with Quickkill on this one, NVG offers an advantage to someone with the coin or connections to get them. Sure there are ways to defeat them but you still have to buy and deploy them.   I'd say a hard and fast rule would be to not have them.  Having decussions with team captons at the start of each round about what gear is permitted and what isn't won't work, it will lead to arguments and debates and generaly take too long.  There can't be options in the rules of a tournement it just won't fly.  Look at the NPPL rule book, they state no ramping modes permitted on any ones gun.  Now a board with ramping will only cost you about $150 but it's still not permitted.  Why? because it's an unfair advantage to those how didn't or couldn't buy them.  For some teams it's all they can do to afford to play at all and even though their tactics are solid why should they be punished for not having the extra money?  Also you will get guys whining that they only lost because the other team had NVGs, and in some cases it may even be true.  Personaly I like to run light, just paint, mask, gun, and air.  Nothing else, Now i need a way to take IR emiters and Strobes with me to cancel otu the NVG gear the other team of guys who make more money them me brought?  What has that got to do with how solid my team tactics are? or even my personal skills?  I'd say ban them all together.  Or perhaps implement a ranking system as most major series have rooky, novice, pro that sort of thing, Let the Pros run what they brung and hope they brung enough.   Rookys though shouldn't have to deal with launchers, tanks, and NVG.  That way if you enter the Pro devsion don't complain when you get schooled because you can't see in the dark.